Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/1b47iyAJro
with Ivan Palomino
Transforming Work Culture | Passionate about Human Development | Tech Entrepreneur
Join two expats, me a New Yorker in Canada and Ivan a Peruvian in Switzerland, as we explore how one authentically changes. You can choose the benefits and the risks but you cannot choose not to change. To not change is to decay.
Timestamps:
• 0:00:00 Welcome: Diving into Self-Development
• 0:02:07 Lincoln's Morning Routine & Self-Development Teachings
• 0:03:13 Quantum Physics, Law of Attraction & Metaphor
• 0:05:38 Ethics in Self-Development & Guru Culture
• 0:23:56 Responsibility and Intervention in Beliefs
• 0:36:19 Curiosity, Exploration, and Discerning Genuine Growth
• 0:43:55 Embracing Failure and Experimentation in New Ideas
• 0:59:47 Identifying Authentic Personal Values
• 1:01:19 Understanding Values on Different Levels (Intellectual, Social, Subconscious)
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Ivan writes:
The world of self-development is a bustling marketplace of ideas, promising everything from financial abundance to inner peace. But how do we, as individuals seeking genuine growth, discern the truly valuable from the merely seductive? This question recently guided my conversation with Lincoln Stoller, a remarkable mind whose journey spans quantum mechanics, anthropology, and psychotherapy. Our discussion, recorded for the Growth Hacking Culture podcast, peeled back the layers of popular self-help narratives, revealing a nuanced perspective that is both deeply personal and rigorously science-informed.
The Allure and Ambiguity of Self-Development
It's no secret that the self-development industry is booming. Companies alone are forecasted to spend over $80 billion by 2032 on this very pursuit. As individuals, we are bombarded with information and voices, all promising keys to a "best life." But as Lincoln aptly put it, the line between helpful advice and "purely bullshit" can be thin.
My personal interest in this topic stems from grappling with popular self-development teachings that often intertwine concepts like quantum physics and the law of attraction. Are these genuine connections, or just clever marketing? Lincoln, with his doctorate in quantum mechanics, offered a refreshing take: it’s often about metaphor. Imagination, he argues, is crucial for conceiving something before it can be made real. While many scientists object to what they see as the "bastardization of science in the name of spirituality," Lincoln believes they might be missing the power of metaphor. Science, particularly fields like quantum mechanics where even physicists struggle with full comprehension, can provide new frameworks for understanding. The goal isn't necessarily factual accuracy, but rather to disrupt old ideas and open the mind to new possibilities – a process, he noted, akin to certain methods of hypnosis where confusion can lead to a state of receptive trance.
The Elusive Red Line: When Metaphor Becomes Misleading
This brings us to a critical ethical question: where is the "red line"? When does the use of metaphor in self-development cross into misleading advice? I shared my concern about certain gurus who present scientific concepts, like quantum mechanics, not as metaphors for understanding but as justifications for their own lack of understanding, blurring the lines for their audience.
Lincoln acknowledged the desire for a clear boundary, but painted a more complex picture. He observed that "most arguments are kind of frivolous and shallow," with few people truly deeply understanding any argument. He cited the fascinating dynamic between figures like J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm, where their intellectual exchanges, though stimulating, were often based on differing conceptual languages. He recalled observing that attendees at Krishnamurti centers often celebrated these figures not for their profound arguments, but simply for their celebrity status, riding on their "coat tails" to validate their own beliefs. This phenomenon, he argued, extends to society at large, where we often seek political opinions from movie stars or athletes, valuing celebrity over genuine expertise.
The "law of attraction" served as a prime example of this complex interplay. While Lincoln called it "complete BS" in its supernatural claims, he also conceded that "there are some elements that are true." Focusing on something, he explained, naturally leads to increased awareness, more opportunities, and a deeper understanding. It's not paranormal, but rather "very obvious." He drew a parallel to religion, which, despite its inherent flaws and potential for "false knowledge," can be a powerful tool for fostering agreement and cooperation among people. His provocative question resonated deeply: "What's the alternative? Is everyone going to study everything and become experts? No, people don't care." This led him to a pragmatic conclusion: if you want to be useful, you must speak in ways that resonate with people, using metaphors and analogies they understand, even if the underlying concepts are, in a purely scientific sense, "abstract painting." The better judgment criterion, he suggested, is "what you accomplish or what you're trying to accomplish and not what you're ruining or misusing."
The Responsibility to Intervene: Navigating Harmful Beliefs
Despite the fluidity of truth in metaphorical contexts, I pressed on, emphasizing that a level of responsibility must exist, especially when beliefs become harmful. If I observe someone engaging in self-destructive behavior due to their beliefs, I feel an obligation to intervene. But where does one draw that line, and do we have the right to interfere with another person's belief system?
Lincoln agreed that intervention is warranted when harm is clear. However, the complexities arise in the "gray area" of opinion, where one person's "positive" might be another's "destructive." He drew parallels to the current political landscape, where differing interpretations of reality lead to chaos and shouting, rather than productive discourse. As a therapist, Lincoln finds himself in a unique position to navigate these boundaries. His primary questions for clients are: "Are they injurious to me? Are they injurious to people around them? Are they injurious to themselves?" The answers, he noted, differ in each case. While he is paid to "endure injury" in the form of accusations or challenges from clients, he values the remote nature of his work, which safeguards against misinterpretations of physical interaction. This distance also grants him the freedom to be direct, even to the point of saying, "you're full of shit," or "that's dangerous." However, he observed that clients who are unwilling to change or accept criticism often "flee." Change, he concluded, is at the heart of the matter, and it's often more effectively achieved by enticement than by direct confrontation. Ultimately, while a "line" exists, its assertion depends heavily on the communication context. In our open-ended conversation, where political or scientific precision wasn't the primary goal, the line was intentionally "vague," allowing for the exploration of disagreements rather than the assertion of rigid viewpoints.
The Duty of Exploration: Finding Your Genuine Path
My curiosity then turned to Lincoln's own impressive journey, from "hardcore physics to getting to know the insights of the brains of human being." Is it a universal "duty" for human beings to embrace such openness and exploration? And if so, how can we discern what is genuinely helpful and true in self-development, particularly when we lack comprehensive knowledge to assess every approach?
Lincoln acknowledged the difficulty and importance of these questions. The first answer, he suggested, is the hardest to describe: "you have to know what feels right for yourself." This requires a deep commitment to personal values, a "pivot" that guides your choices. It's not a simple duality of agreement or disagreement, but a shared space where concepts can be engaged and enlarged. Confusion, he surprisingly argued, can be a valuable tool, a means to dislodge ingrained mindsets. He highlighted the importance of delving into the "world where things don't make sense," the subconscious realm of dreams, unintentional reactions, memory, and trauma. This "terrain of reason" is where the "foundation" of our being lies, akin to the nutrients beneath a garden's soil. If this foundation is "bad," conflicted, or depressed, then what grows atop it will lack strength and honesty. Working at this deeper, subconscious level, he emphasized, is the most interesting and important area, though also the hardest to access without external support.
When pressed for "tricks" to spot genuine self-development, Lincoln offered a counter-intuitive but profound idea: "you have to be ready to fail on any new idea." If you already know exactly what to do with a new concept, it cannot truly be new. Growth requires engaging with the unfamiliar, putting together previously disparate concepts. He championed travel as a powerful tool for enlargement, exposing individuals to new cultures and ideas. However, even reading and socializing can be "stultifying" if confined to the same familiar patterns. The irony, he stated, is that "you know when you don't know." A "fertile area" for growth is often one where you feel a sense of not understanding.
Drawing from his own experience in mountain climbing, he explained that learning to discern safe exploration from genuine danger is crucial. He spoke of scaling dangerous cliffs without a rope, a practice that demanded absolute focus and the absence of fear or doubt. While he wasn't traumatized at the time, the memory still brings nightmares decades later, illustrating that the immediate perception of safety doesn't always align with long-term well-being. His advice: "You should be willing to take as much risk as you think is safe and always try to take more." In any technical field, or in life itself, he suggested "biting off more than you can chew," but "not so much that you choke." It's a constant, difficult decision, where "it will always be difficult," but some difficulties are "good" and others "bad." He questioned the relentless pursuit of "greatest competence" in extreme sports, suggesting that it often overshadows genuine learning, becoming a pursuit of ephemeral achievement rather than lasting growth.
The Core of Values: An Ongoing Journey
My most challenging personal struggle, which I shared with Lincoln, lies in identifying my authentic values. In a world saturated with social media and external influences, how do we discern values that truly belong to us, rather than those shaped by societal approval or past experiences?
Lincoln confirmed that this is a universal struggle, noting that some questions cannot be answered purely at an intellectual level. Like the question of God's existence, some truths resonate at the level of "faith." He outlined several levels of understanding our values: the intellectual, often proving "hopeless" for these deep questions; the social, where values are shaped by friends and community (he humorously noted his son's "religion" being online video games); and then deeper levels. The "heart" level, where we feel love, concern, or anger, serves as a touchstone for decisions. But the "most interesting" and foundational level for him is the "subconscious," the realm of dreams, unintentional reactions, memory, and trauma.
As a counselor, Lincoln works with dreams as a "resource of ambiguity, conflict, chaos, deep feelings, emotional feelings." Being overly rational about dreams, he argued, is unhelpful because they don't conform to reason. This subconscious realm is the "foundation," the "garden" from which our conscious thoughts and actions grow. If this foundation is "bad," lacking honesty or commitment, then everything built upon it will be vulnerable. Working at this deeper level, he emphasized, requires someone who can move beyond pleasantries and social protocols to appreciate personal confusion. He sees the counselor's role as providing a "less biased" voice, a mirror to our inner complexities. He underscored the immense energy and skill required by a good therapist, who might "think five times for each word they speak" to help disentangle a client's "disregulated and conflicted" life. While the financially privileged may have access to more subtle and open-minded help, those in deepest need often lack the resources, creating a profound societal challenge. Ultimately, Lincoln believes that talking, especially when skilled enough to access the subconscious, can be incredibly effective, allowing individuals to glimpse "a deeper reality."
Conclusion: Embracing the Messiness of Growth
This conversation with Lincoln Stoller was a powerful reminder that self-development is rarely a linear, perfectly rational journey. It’s a messy, often uncomfortable, but ultimately deeply rewarding process of exploration. True growth, as he elucidated, involves embracing ambiguity, challenging preconceived notions, and daring to venture into the unknown, even if it means "biting off more than you can chew." It’s about listening not just to external gurus, but to the whispers of our own subconscious, guided by an authentic sense of what feels right, even when the path ahead isn't entirely clear. In a world clamoring for quick fixes, Lincoln's wisdom offers a refreshing and grounded invitation to a more profound and enduring kind of self-discovery.
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